1st Kustom Nationals

[choco]

Bryan, you make many valid points, and you have the right attitude.
Bravo.
I have always been an advocate of free speech and communication, which the ASRF as a national body sadly lacks. However, that is the nature of the way in which the ASRF is structured, and only by diving in and doing something about it can it be changed. The issues you raised with things like unfounded rumors and rego hassles are a result of human things that the ASRF as a body of rodders has no control over. If you examine the issues closely, you will find that the hassles and rumors are fed by individuals with an axe to grind with other individuals. The old law of scuttlebut also applies, where the facts get clouded and distorted as they are passed from one person to another.
It happens.
That's why good communication is important.
I would like to do more, and I probably will, but some of us just get burnt out over the years and it's up to the masses to offer their support.
Now that's a word I use very often.
Support.
If, as you state, money is short, logistics are an impediment to your involvement and time is precious, then by showing your support for your state's ASRF is good enough. Showing support means not being negative, giving praise where it is deserved for even the smallest of efforts, by not spreading unfounded gossip, by being objective - all these things, and more, is being supportive. You have no idea of what it means to have someone you've never met before come up to you and say "Well Done" when you have been part of an ASRF committee, or run organiser, or Nationals Committee, or stste delegate, whatever.
The other issue you raised is the Nationals entry thing. From my perspective, I lobbied hard on 2 Nationals Committees to make the ASRF Nationals an event for ASRF members. For too long, the anti-ASRF lobby were able to enter the Nationals and enjoy all they had to offer without being financial members of the ASRF. My stance was to charge 1 year's ASRF fees on top of the entry fee for non-financial members wishing to enter the Nats. I believe that the next Geelong nats is working along these lines. I fully support that. I do know that several cars were refused entry at the last Geelong nats because they were not ASRF class vehicles. Fair enough, don't you think? Like it or not, rules are rules, and if the rules are wrong, they need to be changed.
Which the ASRF did, with regard to the recent "referendum". We now welcome Kustom FJs, EKs, etc as ASRF class vehicles, the way it should be. When these cars were written out of the rule book several years ago, circumstances were different. Basically, there weren't any of these cars around any more!
As I said, circumstances change.
Anyway, enough of my rambling, I'll get back to work.

[Carps]

Bryan, you make many valid points, and you have the right attitude.
Bravo.

I'll second that.

I have always been an advocate of free speech and communication, which the ASRF as a national body sadly lacks. However, that is the nature of the way in which the ASRF is structured, and only by diving in and doing something about it can it be changed.

However as an individual, one has no voice. Likewise the individuals have no collective voice as even the club members are not allowed to speak 9vote0 as individuals.

That's why good communication is important.

And why sometimes it's important to use a lot of words to make sure there's no misinterpretation of what's been said. [/quote]

I would like to do more, and I probably will, but some of us just get burnt out over the years

Yup, and they often get involved with other groups of like minded souls to organise events and activities for them.

and it's up to the masses to offer their support.

Trouble is the masses are too coplacenet or sometimes even mislead, by those who hold 'the power'.

You have no idea of what it means to have someone you've never met before come up to you and say "Well Done" when you have been part of an ASRF committee, or run organiser, or Nationals Committee, or stste delegate, whatever.

Some of us do and we also know what it's like to have outsiders attempt to scuttle our events or be told we are wasting our breath trying to change things.

The other issue you raised is the Nationals entry thing. From my perspective, I lobbied hard on 2 Nationals Committees to make the ASRF Nationals an event for ASRF members. For too long, the anti-ASRF lobby were able to enter the Nationals and enjoy all they had to offer without being financial members of the ASRF.

We could debate this issue forever and strangely I'd agree with Choco. That agreement despite the fact that KOA events are open to anybody who wishes to come along and join us provided they have an appropriate vehicle. If you're going to attend someone else's event only to shitcan it then you should at least be a member of that organisation.

On the other hand, if office bearers of one organisation attempt to scuttle another then they should expect to hear some strong retort from that other organisation regardless of membership.

My stance was to charge 1 year's ASRF fees on top of the entry fee for non-financial members wishing to enter the Nats. I believe that the next Geelong nats is working along these lines. I fully support that.

Me too, however as I understand it, the requirement is for TWO years membership, which I don't agree with. Also, I requested a copy of the rule book as the mebership application says that I agree to abide by the rules of the ASRF at all times. Sorry but I'm not going to sign any such document if I can't read it in it's entirety and with all the fine print, before I put pen to paper. I' also expect, that as a member I have the same rights as every other member. As I understand it for that to happen I must join a club and then I don't have an individual voice but the voice of the majority of my fellow club members.

To force a two year membership in order to attend only one event during that period I consider pretty close to 'Third Line Forcing' which is an illegal activity. I'll happily pay a pro rata fee, for membership to cover the duration of the event or even for a year (provided I'm not required to agree to any rules I can't see or don't agree to.) meanwhile I guess I'll just continue to attend as a spectator.

I do know that several cars were refused entry at the last Geelong nats because they were not ASRF class vehicles. Fair enough, don't you think? Like it or not, rules are rules, and if the rules are wrong, they need to be changed.

Especially some of the draconian rules like the one I believe will stop my car at the gates, with it's comination of shiney paint, two primered doors and lack of interior. As I understand the ASRF rules, my car is not good enough to participate in the Nationals event, despite being entered by a member and the fact that the car is 100% roadworthy.

So, I could have saved the membership fee and spent the weekend on site as a spectator.

Which the ASRF did, with regard to the recent "referendum". We now welcome Kustom FJs, EKs, etc as ASRF class vehicles, the way it should be. When these cars were written out of the rule book several years ago, circumstances were different. Basically, there weren't any of these cars around any more!

They've been there forever, just got sick of being shat on from a great height by the chassised US car snobs.

As I said, circumstances change.

But the more they change, the more they stay the same.

Frank, I know you're one of the blokes who won't take my opinion the wrong way, and it's good to have a two way discussion like this, but I gotta tell you onece again, there's not enough open minded blokes like you in the Federation and that's why I'm still not back there.

[Guest]

Bryan, you make many valid points, and you have the right attitude.
Bravo.

I'll second that.

I have always been an advocate of free speech and communication, which the ASRF as a national body sadly lacks. However, that is the nature of the way in which the ASRF is structured, and only by diving in and doing something about it can it be changed.

However as an individual, one has no voice. Likewise the individuals have no collective voice as even the club members are not allowed to speak (vote) as individuals.

That's why good communication is important.

And why sometimes it's important to use a lot of words to make sure there's no misinterpretation of what's been said.

I would like to do more, and I probably will, but some of us just get burnt out over the years

Yup, and they often get involved with other groups of like minded souls to organise events and activities for them.

and it's up to the masses to offer their support.

Trouble is the masses are too coplacenet or sometimes even mislead, by those who hold 'the power'.

You have no idea of what it means to have someone you've never met before come up to you and say "Well Done" when you have been part of an ASRF committee, or run organiser, or Nationals Committee, or stste delegate, whatever.

Some of us do and we also know what it's like to have outsiders attempt to scuttle our events or be told we are wasting our breath trying to change things.

The other issue you raised is the Nationals entry thing. From my perspective, I lobbied hard on 2 Nationals Committees to make the ASRF Nationals an event for ASRF members. For too long, the anti-ASRF lobby were able to enter the Nationals and enjoy all they had to offer without being financial members of the ASRF.

We could debate this issue forever and strangely I'd agree with Choco. That agreement despite the fact that KOA events are open to anybody who wishes to come along and join us provided they have an appropriate vehicle. If you're going to attend someone else's event only to shitcan it then you should at least be a member of that organisation.

On the other hand, if office bearers of one organisation attempt to scuttle another then they should expect to hear some strong retort from that other organisation regardless of membership.

My stance was to charge 1 year's ASRF fees on top of the entry fee for non-financial members wishing to enter the Nats. I believe that the next Geelong nats is working along these lines. I fully support that.

Me too, however as I understand it, the requirement is for TWO years membership, which I don't agree with. Also, I requested a copy of the rule book as the mebership application says that I agree to abide by the rules of the ASRF at all times. Sorry but I'm not going to sign any such document if I can't read it in it's entirety and with all the fine print, before I put pen to paper. I' also expect, that as a member I have the same rights as every other member. As I understand it for that to happen I must join a club and then I don't have an individual voice but the voice of the majority of my fellow club members.

To force a two year membership in order to attend only one event during that period I consider pretty close to 'Third Line Forcing' which is an illegal activity. I'll happily pay a pro rata fee, for membership to cover the duration of the event or even for a year (provided I'm not required to agree to any rules I can't see or don't agree to.) meanwhile I guess I'll just continue to attend as a spectator.

I do know that several cars were refused entry at the last Geelong nats because they were not ASRF class vehicles. Fair enough, don't you think? Like it or not, rules are rules, and if the rules are wrong, they need to be changed.

Especially some of the draconian rules like the one I believe will stop my car at the gates, with it's comination of shiney paint, two primered doors and lack of interior. As I understand the ASRF rules, my car is not good enough to participate in the Nationals event, despite being entered by a member and the fact that the car is 100% roadworthy.

So, I could have saved the membership fee and spent the weekend on site as a spectator.

Which the ASRF did, with regard to the recent "referendum". We now welcome Kustom FJs, EKs, etc as ASRF class vehicles, the way it should be. When these cars were written out of the rule book several years ago, circumstances were different. Basically, there weren't any of these cars around any more!

They've been there forever, just got sick of being shat on from a great height by the chassised US car snobs.

As I said, circumstances change.

But the more they change, the more they stay the same.

Frank, I know you're one of the blokes who won't take my opinion the wrong way, and it's good to have a two way discussion like this, but I gotta tell you onece again, there's not enough open minded blokes like you in the Federation and that's why I'm still not back there.[/quote]

[Guest]

Bryan, you make many valid points, and you have the right attitude.
Bravo.

I'll second that.

I have always been an advocate of free speech and communication, which the ASRF as a national body sadly lacks. However, that is the nature of the way in which the ASRF is structured, and only by diving in and doing something about it can it be changed.

However as an individual, one has no voice. Likewise the individuals have no collective voice as even the club members are not allowed to speak (vote) as individuals.

That's why good communication is important.

And why sometimes it's important to use a lot of words to make sure there's no misinterpretation of what's been said.

I would like to do more, and I probably will, but some of us just get burnt out over the years

Yup, and as a result they often get involved with other groups of like minded souls to help organise alternative events and activities for everybody.

and it's up to the masses to offer their support.

Trouble is the masses are too complacenet and sometimes even misslead, by those who hold 'the power'.

You have no idea of what it means to have someone you've never met before come up to you and say "Well Done" when you have been part of an ASRF committee, or run organiser, or Nationals Committee, or stste delegate, whatever.

Some of us do and we also know what it's like to have outsiders who hold 'the power' attempt to scuttle our non 'ASRF sanctioned' events or be told we are wasting our breath trying to change things.

The other issue you raised is the Nationals entry thing. From my perspective, I lobbied hard on 2 Nationals Committees to make the ASRF Nationals an event for ASRF members. For too long, the anti-ASRF lobby were able to enter the Nationals and enjoy all they had to offer without being financial members of the ASRF.

We could debate this issue forever and strangely I'd still agree with Choco. That agreement despite the fact that KOA events are open to anybody who wishes to come along and join us provided they have an appropriate vehicle. Of course we will encourage you to join our organisation as part of your participation. I also believe if you're going to attend someone else's event only to shitcan it then you should at least be a member of that organisation in order to have that right.

On the other hand, if office bearers of one organisation attempt to scuttle another then they should expect some strong retort from that other organisation regardless of membership in theirs.

My stance was to charge 1 year's ASRF fees on top of the entry fee for non-financial members wishing to enter the Nats. I believe that the next Geelong nats is working along these lines. I fully support that.

Me too, however as I understand it, the requirement is for TWO years membership, which I don't agree with. Also, I requested a copy of the rule book as the mebership application requires me to sign an agreement/contract that I willabide by the rules of the ASRF at all times. Sorry, but I'm not going to sign any such document if I can't read it in it's entirety and with all the fine print, before I put pen to paper. I' also expect, that as a member I have the same rights as every other member. As I understand it for that to happen I must join a club and then I don't have an individual voice but the voice of the majority of my fellow club members.

To force a two year membership in order to attend only one event during that period I consider pretty close to 'Third Line Forcing' which is an illegal activity. I'll happily pay a pro rata fee, for membership to cover the duration of the event or even for a year (provided I'm not required to agree to any rules I can't see or don't agree to.) meanwhile I guess I'll just continue to attend as a spectator.

I do know that several cars were refused entry at the last Geelong nats because they were not ASRF class vehicles. Fair enough, don't you think? Like it or not, rules are rules, and if the rules are wrong, they need to be changed.

Especially some of the draconian rules like the one I believe will stop my car at the gates, with it's combination of shiney paint, two primered doors and lack of interior. As I understand the ASRF rules, this car is not good enough to participate in the Nationals event, despite being entered by a member and the fact that the car is 100% roadworthy.

So, once again, I'll save the membership fee and spend the weekend on site as a spectator.

Which the ASRF did, with regard to the recent "referendum". We now welcome Kustom FJs, EKs, etc as ASRF class vehicles, the way it should be. When these cars were written out of the rule book several years ago, circumstances were different. Basically, there weren't any of these cars around any more!

They've been there forever, just got sick of being shat on from a great height by the chassised US car snobs. Since I haven't seen the new rules I don't know if they are as before. Where these chassisless vehicles require severe and radical, modification to fit the rules yet a similar vintage Chevy/Ford is OK with no more that a significant wheel change.

As I said, circumstances change.

But the more they change, the more they stay the same.

Frank, I know you're one of the goodguys who won't take others opinions the wrong way, and it's good to have a two way discussion like this, but I gotta tell you once again, there's not enough open minded blokes like you in the Federation and that's why 20 years after being burnt, I'm still not back there.[/quote][/quote]

[choco]

Carps, it doesn't matter whether we are talking about the ASRF, the Lone Wolves Inc, ANDRA, KOA, NSRA, the Wrectums(TM) or whatever. If you, as an individual that disagrees with one or more aspects/rules/conditions of any of the above examples, wait for all the "right" criteria to line up before you step in, then you will be waiting a long, long time. As I have said every time we debate the issue, there are aspects about the ASRF that need addressing/improving/changing. I have spent many years and demolished many brick walls with my head, in an attempt to bring about change. I have been rewarded in some areas with varying levels of success. I have been instrumental is bringing about some major changes. But there is still a way to go, there are still some battles to be fought and won. I still maintain that it is a good institution, with the right foundations. You continue to maintain an opposition to aspects which will NEVER change, particularly the one man, one vote issue. I can argue until I'm blue in the face, but you (and others who hold the same view) just won't accept that the ASRF is NOT a club.
As to preventing you from entering your Hot Rod because of paint, interior, etc, the issue is only relevant when you are attending an ASRF sanctioned Hot Rod Show and you are not in the "unfinished" section.
You also continue to lambast "the ASRF" when, clearly, your complaint is with an individual or group of individuals, acting on behalf of the ASRF.

Carps, Hot Rodding is my hobby, it's not a religion. I derive an immense amount of pleasure from building and driving my cars, and by associating with like minded people, especially those of such a high intellectual callibre as yourself. But my continued stand is my way of protecting my hobby. I am of the opinion that no other Hot Rod related institution in this country can offer the protection of my hobby than the ASRF, even with its faults. This aspect should be evident even to you. Therefore I shall continue to support the men and women who direct the ASRF both on a State and Federal level, even though, every now and again, an outright DICKHEAD gets to hold the tiller for a while. I shall also continue to debate the matter with you, over and over again, if necessary, until I change my opinion or until you change yours. I have a feeling that it will be a lot of fun!

[Carps]

Carps, it doesn't matter whether we are talking about the ASRF, the Lone Wolves Inc, ANDRA, KOA, NSRA, the Wrectums(TM) or whatever. If you, as an individual that disagrees with one or more aspects/rules/conditions of any of the above examples, wait for all the "right" criteria to line up before you step in, then you will be waiting a long, long time.

Yup, and there's no way I'm ever going to agree to abide by a set of rules that I don't believe are fair. Picture the scenario, I'm a new member trying to make myself heard only to be told to shut the F*#k up because I agreed to the rules and that's that!. Can't say it won't hapen coz I've been there many times over many years, as a DC rep arguing my clubs point of view. However, my bigger cincern at present is why nobody can give me (I interpret it as they don't want to) the rules, but they are all happy to tell me that once I've signed on as a member, and therefore agreed to abide by the same rules, I can have a copy. Surely even you see a major flaw in that deal?

As I have said every time we debate the issue, there are aspects about the ASRF that need addressing/improving/changing. I have spent many years and demolished many brick walls with my head,

That explains a lot.

I have been rewarded in some areas with varying levels of success. I have been instrumental is bringing about some major changes.

I was provided an opportunity to take a different route and last weekend is a good example of the rewards we've had from going the way we decided to go. The only ones who missed out are those who didn't come to join in for whatever reason but I feel particularly sorry for the ones who didn't come because of the political campaign that was waged in order to stop them attending.

You continue to maintain an opposition to aspects which will NEVER change, particularly the one man, one vote issue.

I learned that over 20 years ago. That's a major element of why I left and why I won't return. I believe it's undemocratic and therefore I will stand by or debate that belief with passion. Mind you, I also think it's undemocratic for an organisation to dictate to their members where and when they can or can't use their own vehicles or which events they may attend. The law is what dictates that, not a bunch of private citizens.

I can argue until I'm blue in the face, but you (and others who hold the same view) just won't accept that the ASRF is NOT a club.

I've always known ASRF is not a club. So I'm not sure what you're getting at here. It's a political organisationand like other political organisations, I have a right not to belong and a right to argue my opinion if thier activities or policies affect my life. I spent many years as a DC delegate and had some ripper battles with people like Bob Dykes and Jim Davin, who both remain very good personal friends and are equally as passionate as you and me even in their retirement from public life. I also got a lot of support from within my club, which by the way was evolved from one of the countries original Hot Rod Clubs but with the majority of our membership owning customs rather than pre '48 Rods. In fact for many years our club cars won the top custom and related awards at most Victorian Shows and we ran what was the most sucessful small indoor show in this state. Until the anti kustom attitude of the ASRF finally forced our club to become a Street Machine club. But as usual I digress, sorry bout that.

As to preventing you from entering your Hot Rod because of paint, interior, etc, the issue is only relevant when you are attending an ASRF sanctioned Hot Rod Show and you are not in the "unfinished" section.

Sorry Choco, I was told categorically by one of the Nat's commitee that my car would be turned back at the gate, because it's not finished to the required standard as set out in the rules. Another fellow with a legal and roadworthy 'Rat Rod' was even told."We want to keep all the shitboxes like yours out of the event."

You also continue to lambast "the ASRF" when, clearly, your complaint is with an individual or group of individuals, acting on behalf of the ASRF.

These guys are office bearers and holders of executive positions within the organisation, therefore as far as I'm concerned, just as when I'm talking to the press, a dealer or a customer on behalf of my employer, I am Toyota, they are the ASRF.

Carps, Hot Rodding is my hobby, it's not a religion. I derive an immense amount of pleasure from building and driving my cars, and by associating with like minded people, especially those of such a high intellectual callibre as yourself.

Me too, but I'd question the high intelectual calibre bit. If you'd said stobborn and pigheaded then maybe I'd be able to agree.

But my continued stand is my way of protecting my hobby. I am of the opinion that no other Hot Rod related institution in this country can offer the protection of my hobby than the ASRF, even with its faults. This aspect should be evident even to you.

No disagreement there, however the organisation also has the ability to do equal damage to our hobby by being dictatorial. Also by ignoring or refusing to understand why so many people have turned away and are seekeing alternate hobies or means to enjoy their hot rods and kustoms.

Therefore I shall continue to support the men and women who direct the ASRF both on a State and Federal level, even though, every now and again, an outright DICKHEAD gets to hold the tiller for a while.

Me too, just because I'm not a member doesn't mean I do nothing or don't support the efforts of the few who are trying to make it better. I'm just a little picky about who I give my time, effort and money.

I shall also continue to debate the matter with you, over and over again, if necessary, until I change my opinion or until you change yours. I have a feeling that it will be a lot of fun!

Just as well I'm not a drinking man, it might end up being more fun than our livers could tollerate.

Here's one to consider for future discussion. A few years back I attended my first DC meeting in around fifteen years. I was there to support a buddy. The thing that made me sad was the discussion about a certain fenderless car being driven regulalrly on full rego with no fenders and how the owner must be severely punished. Why was I sad? Because it was the very same argument that had been raging the night I resigned from the DC and the ASRF.

And to make it worse, they were discussing taking quite drastic action, simply because there was nothing they could do about it within the ASRF rules, because the owner was not a member of the Federation.

I still find this a little humourous since many of the ASRF's own advertising banners for various events depict quite clearly, fenderless cars. So I'd ask, rather than giving the guys who wish to run fenderless a hard time, why not do something to get the law changed and allow them to run that way. Can't really be a safety issue coz I've not heard of anybody being killed or maimed by a fendeless rod or any other fenderless vehicle. Tractors and other agricultural vehicles are allowed to run fenderless, motorcycles too, so why chastise your own members when it would seem the better path would be to fight for their right to run fenderless.

Uhh, Ohhh methinks now I've really opened the can of worms, it'll be the ban on T buckets next.

[choco]

Well, Carps, all I can say is that your grievences remind me of times when I, too, faced the same outrageous anomalies which, on the face of it, almost put me off rodding altogether. I soon learned a valuable lesson: "Every Dog Has His Day". Sadly, these same issues continue to pop up every now and then, and every time it happens I reckon you can single out one or two agitators that are there to stir the pot for no other reason than to save face, stroke egos or build empires. In many cases, you'll find people who genuinely think that they are doing the right thing, yet are making pigs of themselves. Some are aggressive, some are condescending, some are downright evil. But "Every Dog Has His Day". I am one of those people who'll stick by and wait for his day, because good will always triumph over evil. I've mostly been satisfied with that. Not always, I'll admit, but mostly.
Lets quit this tete-a-tete now, because I feel we may be acting divisively by continuing in this manner and on this forum. It may seem like a sensible debate, and I believe it is, but without some response from at least one or two office bearers, we are pissing in the wind.
Of course, I know you'll want the last word, so go ahead.....